T-25-009 : Sera Evcimen - Mechanical Engineer to Host of The Builder Circle™ Podcast
We have so many good ideas on
Sera:this pod. Like, we shouldn't release this.
Sera:We should just, like, turn into a business. Seriously. Oops. Too late. Yeah.
Sera:It's out there.
Nate:You're listening to TRADEOFFS, a podcast about the trials and tribulations of designing, building, and manufacturing hardware and the people that make it. Each month, we sit down with founders, engineers, and other hardware professionals to understand the unique trade offs inherent in building a business that makes physical products. I'm Nate Padgett, hardware community guy and founder of Informal, a freelance collective that helps companies of all sizes design, build, and ship world class hardware.
Chris:And I'm Chris Rill, startup founder, engineer, and fractional CTO, where I help hardware and software companies build and scale their products. TRADEOFFS captures the best of these conversations so you can learn about the numerous skill sets needed to successfully bring physical products to market. On this episode, we sat down with Sarah Edgemont, mechanical engineer, consultant, and host of the Builder Circle Podcast, where she interviews hardware founders, investors, and other professionals. We're big fans of her pod, and we're honored to have her join us on the other side of the microphone, talk about trade offs, hardware horror stories, and how spending time in the machine shop can make you a better engineer. Let's dive in.
Nate:Thank you so much for joining. Really appreciate this.
Sera:Thank you. Excited.
Nate:Can you talk a little bit about why you started the podcast and kind of what your process has been? And then we'll we'll talk about you and your background and and all those things.
Sera:Honestly, dude, it was, I I really, really appreciate talking about hardware with people that know what they're talking about. And I think one of the things that I kept noticing is just working with a lot of startups or chatting with operators in the field, I kept seeing these, like, patterns of people struggling with certain things and then other people having a really good strategy to deal with it and all of that. And I was just like, there needs to be some type of bridge between these people and people that are starting up. And the beauty of the digital world is that you can basically clone your voice in the, like, simplest of terms. And I was just like, what if I kind of just write out all of the problems that keep coming up?
Sera:And if it comes to this critical mass, I'm going to find the people that know how to deal with it, have discussions with them, and record it, and then share it. So that's kind of how it came about. It was through necessity really of the community.
Nate:Cool. You you've had some, like, amazing conversations. I remember the one that you had about hardware and defense tech. That was, like, the first one I'd listened to, and I remember sending this to Chris and being like, we have to talk to this woman.
Sera:Or in Hoffman?
Nate:Yes. Yes. It was.
Sera:Yeah. Oh my god. That was, like, a crowd of neighborhood. He he was so popular.
Nate:It was it was awesome. It was a great conversation. So, yeah, was he is he a client, or, how'd you how are you how are you sourcing your guests?
Sera:And so, I mean, it's honestly it's not through my clients. It's through my amazing network. I mean, like, it's the people in the hardware community are actually so biased in the sense that they really want to help. Like, if they know something about something you don't know, they will be in the front lines to tell you who to talk to, what to do, and what not to do, etcetera. People are so generous with sharing that knowledge and I just started to kinda get the feelers out.
Sera:I was like, if I did a podcast, like, would you be on it? Like, do you know anyone that would be good for this episode? And my network's network is even larger than my network.
Nate:So Oh, yeah.
Sera:They were like, oh, I have the right person for you. And then also, I'm a part of the Balcoons Collective, a collective of creative technologists, which is a niche sliver of hardware people that are engineers, operators, and creatives. So I was able to get connected to folks like Ying Liu who set up the supply chain for Apple in China when there was no one. Like, when they didn't have a supply chain there.
Nate:Cool. That's awesome.
Chris:Do you think where you were located contributed to that network?
Sera:Definitely. I mean, with the Balcoons Collective, it was this the way that I got connected to them is because I worked at a startup in their portfolio years ago. They used to be Bolt, but I worked for their portfolio for a relatively short period of time actually. And at that time, I met the GP and principals and I stayed connected to them. And then they kinda taps me years later being like, we want you to be a part of this collective.
Sera:So that introduced me to this wider network, which is really cool.
Nate:Totally. Well, maybe before we get too far afield, maybe we take a step back to talk about kinda your early years and working at a portfolio company within Bolt.
Chris:Go all the way back. Like, what motivated you to get into, you know, physical products?
Sera:Alright. Let me go back. So it was 1996 now. I feel like my journey into physical product land probably is the most generic and most common way of getting into it. I used to watch how it's made with my dad when I was a kid and freaking loved manufacturing.
Sera:Manufacturing. I was just so completely enthralled. But then one of my family friends that I grew up with, she got into MIT and went into mechanical engineering. And I think I was 10. I was like, that's what I wanna do.
Sera:I was, like, good at math. I was good in physics. And you say, like, 10 years old, good at physics. What the hell are you talking about? Turkish education
Nate:was hard. Wow. They start you at physics at 10?
Sera:Yeah. The basics of physics at, like, fourth grade and above, and then we started building on that. We would do high school math problems at fifth grade. And then my dad kind of pieced it all together for me being like, you know how you used to play with Legos? Like, it's like really difficult Legos.
Sera:Like, he's trying to kind of because he always wanted to be a mechanical engineer. And I think he was really enthralled with that. Like, he would he fixed his car, like, a bajillion times, made pieces for it. He took out the motor from his vinyl record player and with LEGOs set up a automatic curtain opener that he would, like, click a button and it would, like, open his curtains. He was just, like, broke and he was in Turkey and he was living on his own.
Sera:And then also he lived on a basement floor and he was just really terrified of burglars because there was a lot of burglary happening. And he, like, put electric wires on his metal, I guess, cage the cage like things for
Nate:Mhmm.
Sera:People that live on basement floors. He like electrified them. So like, if a burglar tried to come in, he would, I guess, explode.
Chris:He's the inspiration for the movie Home Alone. Seriously.
Sera:Yeah. He was that. He he was, but much older and much nerdier, I would say. So honestly, like, in the core of it, I think it was just my dad slowly manipulating me into it.
Nate:And what did your dad do? What was what was his job?
Sera:So He was a statistician that he then he basically like, you can't really do much with statistics. But it's a it's a good skill set to have, but like, what do you do with that? And so he actually worked in supply chain for years. He was in procurement, and that's why I kind of have pretty good, like, supply chain chops is because of him because he knows, like, all the ins and outs for, like, forty years of experience. He is, like, the reason that I do the work that I do, and I'm quite good at it because I've always had a mentor in him and yeah.
Sera:So that's my very like windy path into it.
Nate:Yeah. That's fantastic. So you so you studied mechanical engineering. You'd
Sera:Yep. I actually I went to Boston University. I studied mechanical engineering there. But I worked at the machine shop there, and that was the most I've learned about mechanical engineering period.
Nate:Oh, yeah. You gotta build. You gotta be hands on.
Chris:I worked in the machine shop in high school, like assembling robots. And it was so much fun. And maybe that's what compelled me not to go into mechanical engineering.
Sera:You're like, I'm I'm done.
Nate:Carried you out.
Chris:Yeah. But I do have a fact like, I didn't take any mechanical engineering courses in college, and I regret it. But this particular machine that we were reassembling was a bread slicing and packaging. Like, it was completely mechanical. Was all done with, like, a single timing belt and bunch of cams, and that's why I'm like, you I could sit there and look at it for hours just trying to understand all the different it was like a dance of hardware.
Chris:But, yeah, I went into software. So there there it is.
Nate:But it's software for hardware, so you're still okay. We can all still be friends.
Sera:Yeah. That's cool.
Nate:Okay. So you spent your time in the machine shop, and then did you go right into working at startups out of school, or did you do little on your own?
Sera:My first job in my life was in the machine shop. And after that, I was looking for another internship because I was obsessed with getting internships in college because I wanted to be ahead of everyone. I was like, gonna have so many internships. I'm gonna graduate. I'm gonna have a bajillion job offers.
Sera:That did not happen. But I was really eager. And one day, I saw this flyer that said startup career fair. I've gone to all of the other career fairs, and it was just like GE, P and G, nothing against them, but it was the same people over and over again. And so this was like interesting.
Sera:I was like, oh, what's a startup? I didn't even know at the time. So I went and I met this company that was working on CubeSat satellites and was I like, that's pretty cool. I really am interested in space. I did an internship in the space company.
Sera:And so I started chatting with them and they were like, we'd love to like interview you for a summer internship. And then I went for the interview. Obviously, like my experience in the machine shop really set me apart from everyone else because no one else did it. Like, no one really engaged with the machine shop. Like, students would come and give me their projects, and they'd be like, could you make this for me?
Sera:And then I would make it for them, and then they would go on their merry way and use their m four screws and screw in it. And, like, a lot of people then coming in and, like, talking to me and doing that cons what's cons I remember seeing people's, like, resumes, and they were like, worked in the machine shop. I'm like, I hate that. I remember being like, no. You haven't.
Sera:If you haven't been yelled at by a machine shop director, like, you have not. You do not have the Even lived of what needs to be an accolade.
Nate:Or or lived receiving someone's, like, shitty design and being like, I can't make this. What are you talking about, man?
Sera:The amount of times people would come to me and be like, could you put a hole in this thing? And, like, no no dimensions of the hole, where it is, what it's going to be used for, what material of, like, material they want. Nothing.
Nate:Do you spend all this time in the machine shop? You're, like, dealing with these, like, annoying students that need things to be modified. You've got this manager breathing down your neck. How did that inform where you are today?
Sera:Mhmm. That's super fair. I think it informed it greatly. I think one of the things that has been, I guess, like, a superpower in a way is that I never really shy away from doing stuff. I feel like there's some people that really don't like to embed themselves in
Nate:the
Sera:the deeply technical world, which is fine. Operations and strategy are really critically important, which I also work in. But I think the competitive edge that I am able to bring into my work is because I have works in a machine shop because I selected the wrong tool and then wrong speed and then the material started building up on the tool and ramming against the part and destroying it in front of my eyes in the CNC mill. So, like, my ability to really do almost like a failure mode analysis of a system or a process or product is really based upon these like early stage experiences that I had. And like with a few of my clients, the ones that really allow me to be really embedded, I have gone to their facilities and built their products with them in factories and on the factory floor.
Sera:And I love doing that. I think the magic happens there more than it does in decks and Zoom calls. Absolutely. Tried to be as involved as I possibly can, and doubling down on the tech side is why I'm in London. That's why I actually finished a huge portion of my master's here in mechanical engineering.
Chris:Why get a master's degree given the work that you do? Why go back?
Sera:Great question. So I think a master's is only valuable if you know exactly what you wanna get out of it. I don't think you do it just to do it. It's kind of useless if you do so in my opinion. But what I was able to identify through years of working, like really embedded as an employee in these hardware startups and hardware companies, and then going into this client world and working on having a portfolio career where I see so many different products is I started to notice my knowledge gaps in the tech.
Sera:And not to say that it was excessively critical for me to perform my duties to my clients, it wasn't. But I always knew. I was like, if I knew this better, I would be 10 times faster. And also, I would be able to suss out things that could go wrong much better. So I went into my program and I was like, okay.
Sera:This is gonna be a really targeted thing I'm gonna do, and I'm gonna select all of my courses accordingly. So the few classes that I took that were really useful, I learned about polymers, really important in injection molding. And so we learned a ton about how to design for recyclability and how some of them cannot be recycled. And then also, this is a total side note, but it's just it's funny to learn in hindsight how the things you did were not helping if anything. So I actually texted one of my past coworkers about this because we were truing our CubeSat parts because we were using m 1.5 screws.
Sera:So they're tiny. And so in order for them to not unscrew themselves, we would use epoxy to kind of bake them into place. And epoxies are thermosets. Once you heat them back up, they don't melt back. They just crystallize even further.
Sera:And sometimes we would need to unscrew it so we would heat it, thinking that it would melt because your intuition tells you, oh, it's glue. It'll maybe melt. And I like messaged him literally, how many years has it been? Eight years. Eight years later, was like, hey, remember how we were disassembling the satellite and basically heating the epoxy?
Sera:We were curing it more. Like, we were making our Making
Nate:it harder.
Sera:Way worse. Yeah. So it's like, it's cool to learn about that, but like, I took tribology, which is the study of contact, understanding friction, lubrication, wear mechanisms, and how they contribute to failure modes. I took a transmissions course, understanding, like, the entire trade off space and design space of transmission systems, like, the gear geometries and how they're designed, they have you would be so surprised how difficult it is to design a gear pair. It is insane amount of geometry, contact dynamics, and just insane amount of trade offs.
Sera:And so I learned everything on this, and you might be like, cool. But, like, how is it helping? All of the failure modes I see in my hardware companies are due to contact failures. Now I know exactly why they're being caused.
Nate:I see this as a really clear continuation of understanding how things are actually made and what goes into those decisions. And it just requires this really, really fundamental understanding, not just of, like, how do you design this thing? How do you sell this thing? But how do you actually make this thing? Right?
Nate:And not just assuming that someone else is gonna figure it out for you, which total tangent, I do feel like is one of the big kinda downsides to sending so much of the work that we do to China. Right? And not even just to China, but really to partners that we can't necessarily just, like, be sitting next to and understanding exactly what they're doing. And I feel like it does a disservice to a lot of hardware companies.
Sera:Yeah. No. Absolutely. I think this is maybe, Chris, this goes into your world. It's like one of the toughest challenges for people who are creating software for hardware professionals, specifically in the manufacturing field where they need technicians and people on the line to participate in inputting data doesn't go so well.
Sera:And that's usually the biggest adoption problem is people's, like, incumbent beliefs and maybe skill set or, like, passion. It doesn't align with digitizing what we're trying to do and it's a pretty big problem.
Chris:Have you found many startups addressing those challenges specific to call it like in house manufacturing or even outhouse manufacturing?
Sera:No. Everyone's doing the old thing still. Like, none of the people that I know is like, oh, like, we should start off on the right foot. We should start off like digital. We should train our employees because this is the problem.
Sera:When you have a ton that's already created, that's hard to migrate. But if you start off on this, like, right foot, it's just like, oh, it's such like a huge competitive advantage. And it's like a ton of money that you're saving. But people are kind of in their own ways because they're trying to act quick. Manual processes are quicker.
Sera:Like, the initial setup time is quicker. So that is why many people do the transition later still.
Chris:Do you find that your clients struggle with the build versus buy strategy in terms of and it it said another way is like the not invented here. Right? So we're smart enough. We can do everything, and we'll do anything to make the product successful. Only though as long as we build it ourselves.
Sera:It's interesting because everyone is on different parts of the spectrum. I know people that are exactly like that where it's like, I need to build everything, and I'm even gonna go ahead and build commodities because I think that I can do a better job, which, like, this is the annoying part. One startup was gonna build this one sensor, and I was like, you could just buy that. But they freaking made
Nate:it
Sera:so much cheaper, and it worked so much better. And I was like, you know what? I'm gonna shut up because, like, you ended up actually doing something better.
Nate:Sometimes it works out, but the vast majority of the time, it does not because the teams aren't good. It sounds like you were working with a good team. Well, I would actually say that
Chris:the team is not necessarily good.
Nate:It may
Chris:be the environment and the priorities. Right? You gotta look at what resources you have available. And if you only have enough capital to say build one product as opposed to like the 10 products that go into your product True. Maybe you should make different choices.
Sera:True. 100%. But it's like there's that part of the spectrum where I'm gonna build everything because I'm really good at engineering, and I think I could do better than what's out there. And I also don't have a lot of money, and my time is cheap to me. I think that's the mentality of this early stage startup founder.
Sera:And then on the other side of the spectrum, there's people that are like, this is not my area of expertise. I'm gonna outsource everything. And now they're not thinking about what core competencies they need to build in house for the business to be sustainable. Most of the time, everyone's like, ever so slightly off from the optimal approach that they need to be taken, and that's where I come in.
Nate:Well, do you think that that's part of what's been driving you to, you know, focus on material science and, like, machining and all these things? Just like this wanting to have a grasp of the full picture so that you can be that trusted adviser. Is that the goal?
Sera:Absolutely. And, mean, I will say it in the kindest way possible, but specifically, I work with a lot of really deep tech, hard tech people who are insanely smart and good engineers that come from crazy good institutions. And you have to have some level of credibility in what you're saying, have a little bit of a god complex, which we all do. I mean, I do too, I'm sure, in some instances. I feel like I'm I have enough humility due to all of the bashing that I've experienced as an engineer as well.
Sera:But there's a level of respect that I think you gain from really knowing the technical aspect and can kinda hold that debate because I've also noticed some of my clients take everything I say and they just apply it and do it. There's a decent amount of people that and I'm like, no. No. You you can question me. Like, you should definitely fight back and say no if you feel like sometimes I need to empower them to do that.
Sera:But then then there are other times where I call them the debaters, where it's like, but why? But why do we need to follow this pro process? Why do we need to get this certification? Blah blah blah. And so I need to know what I'm talking about because these are really complex technical problems, and I don't expect them to just out of the box believe me.
Sera:Mhmm. I need to have credibility. I need to have really good sources of where this is coming from. And so that's kind of how I thought about it. So yeah.
Chris:Do you find that the folks that question your approach are more technical or less technical?
Sera:More technical. Usually more technical. People who are less technical actually yield the fastest. And I've been lucky enough to work with clients that have a ton of humility and self awareness, but then sometimes some people don't, and that's okay too. And you have to just kind of bring out different parts
Nate:of the
Sera:toolbox to those conversations. And I wanna reach back into my toolbox and actually have tools to grab, and that's the whole purpose of continuous education.
Chris:So in the situations where the team is pushing back on your approach, did they bring you into the organization, or was it the CEO or the CTO or somebody else saying, hey, they acknowledged I see my team, my team needs help. I'm gonna bring Sarah in to help.
Sera:So I have had both happen. So like one of the instance, it was even really worse where it's like I got brought in by an investor, which is like, I personally don't love going into teams through an investor canal even though I'm always happy to help. And like no matter what, I always have to firstly start with like, hey, Like, I know your investor brought me in, but you're my client and you're my priority. And it's first kind of setting the stage up in that way because it could be considered the conflict of interest almost because I could be a spy, you know, like, and that's not the case at all. It's really just like, oh, they keep bringing these questions up.
Sera:You seem to know about this. Let's introduce you and the investors really mean well. But then I see it as initial challenge of just like, hey, just because the investors thought I was good for you, doesn't mean that you have to think I'm good for you. So let's work through that first and create a scope together so that you feel this is gonna be worth it. Because I'm I'm not gonna I've been in enough environments where I didn't feel needed and I don't time for that.
Sera:I would prefer to be in places where people are like, yes, we want to work with you. Because I think one of the greatest challenges in engineering, especially when you're going into teams that are not really thoughtfully put together, is if you have to convince people that you are needed in a team, that makes 50% of your job suck. And I think this is a global It's politics.
Nate:Really.
Sera:It's it's politics. So I cut to the chase very early on and I I say if it is that kind of situation where I've been brought in to a team that didn't ask for me, but their leadership was like, you guys are struggling with this. Let's bring someone in. I kind of start by trying to find common ground and say, okay. If you guys don't need me, you don't need me.
Sera:I'm not gonna force my hand on anything, but let's talk about it. What's keeping you up at night and all of that stuff. And if it becomes a debate, I basically yield at the end just this is what I would do, and these are the reasons. This is what I've seen in the past. This is your data box.
Sera:You do what you need to do with that. I cannot force your hand on this. Mhmm. So it could be both.
Nate:Yeah. It sounds like it's a real partnership. So it being introduced by the investor and that being the in, you know, not necessarily being your your favorite, is that just because of the concern about Aspire? Like, what does she what does she got going on? Or are there other elements with the investor relationship and the optics of that that are challenging?
Nate:Is it mostly just that?
Sera:I think with investors, it's not that challenging because I've been lucky. When investors introduced me, they kinda backed out afterwards. They didn't poke me again being like, so how's it going? How are they doing? Like, if that were the case, I think I'd be very uncomfortable because that is a conflict of interest because they're my client, and I'm not gonna say anything, that they don't feel comfortable with me sharing because it's their relationship.
Sera:It's different lanes, I think. So that's a little bit, I think, just a business complexity thing that anyone that deals with suppliers or a different supply chain of people have to deal with on the daily. But then also, I think I just believe that defining the problem before solving it is the most important thing and I think people who are 10,000 foot away from a product cannot clearly define what the problem is. They can just see some symptoms and they could be like, we think this is the problem and they'll be really sure of it which is my least favorite thing when people are. I prefer for them to be like something's off.
Sera:Could you work with them to figure it out? Right. Because then they're approaching
Nate:it from a defensive position.
Sera:100%. Yeah. Because if you're not in it day in, day out in the lab, chances are you are totally mischaracterizing what's going on and what's not working. So I think when an investor or out of touch leader tries to bring me into the equation, I always approach it with like, I understand what you're saying. Like, these are probably symptoms, but like, gotta work with the team to actually figure out what it is.
Sera:And if they don't need me and they need someone else, I'm gonna tell them. Like, I don't care if I don't get business out of this. Like, at the end of the day, it matters to solve the problem.
Nate:Very cool. Since we started to touch on this, we'd love to chat a little bit about your pipeline as a consultant. How are you finding clients? What does that kind of pipeline look like for you?
Sera:Yeah. I think for me, all of my clients have come to me from very unique channels, which is really cool. I had one client that came to me because TechCrunch did an article with me, and I talked about hardware pitfalls, which was like the start of this all when I was just starting off Priti. One company out of all places just cold emailed me. They're this really cool company.
Sera:They make beverage chillers that you put your beer in and six seconds later while it was in room temperature, it's like a cold beer.
Nate:What are they called?
Sera:Chill It.
Nate:Okay. I'm gonna get one. I need that. I need that right now. I was like, I drank a warm beer yesterday, and it was the worst.
Sera:Oh, no. No. No. You need you need to chill it. I'm telling I I keep telling them.
Sera:I'm like, you guys need to go into The US market because they're currently very much focused on LATAM. Yeah. They're they're a phenomenal group.
Nate:How did you land the TechCrunch article?
Sera:So I was talking to one of TechCrunch writers who's his name's Hai. I think I met him through Balcones actually. And I I was mentioning to him that I was gonna put together this podcast and that I really cared about hardware. He was like, I write about hardware, and it'd be really cool to write an article with you. And we kind of brainstormed.
Sera:And I think it was his idea to be like, should we just talk about pitfalls? And I was like, hell yeah. I could talk about pitfalls.
Nate:Love it.
Sera:And now it's like my thing. I feel like I should trademark hardware pitfalls.
Nate:I think maybe you should. Let me get off this call. Get off this call and
Sera:Maybe I should do that.
Chris:I'm you've heard of yours. The domain. Sorry.
Sera:No. Just kidding. Crap. So that that was, like, one avenue. And then the other, I got a company out of Massachusetts that listened to the podcast and was a huge fan.
Sera:I I got them from that. And then I actually a few people just found me on LinkedIn, which was really cool. I was like, okay. Cool. I SEO optimized the founder of
Nate:posts and the content that you put out?
Sera:Yeah. Pretty much.
Nate:So would you say content is, like, your main lever for growth?
Sera:No. These are the cool kind of, like, off the offset stuff. I think it's more like word-of-mouth. Like, I would work with one startup, and then they would say, like, you should work with Sarah. And then I got to meet a lot of people through Forge and, like, Scale for Climate Tech, which are programs, like incubators that I'm a part of.
Sera:So I get to meet a ton of people. They get to work with me through the program first to really get to know me and understand, like, my value. And then they've, like, after the program would be like, let's let's keep going. So many channels.
Nate:Can you talk a little bit about Forge and Scale? I I've worked with both organizations for a really long time, and I I think one of the really amazing things about the Northeast is there is a ton of support and resources for climate focused businesses, especially hard tech businesses?
Sera:Absolutely. I'd be so happy to. So Forge is like I mean, they're like my family. I've been involved with them and Laura since the conception. They were Greentown Learn before.
Sera:So what they do is they connect startups with manufacturing partners that are local in a sense that they do definitely try to find manufacturing partners in the Northeast, but they're also connected all around The US. They're more about not reshoring in a way that they're building manufacturing facilities. They don't do that, but they talk to people that do. And then they also scout out people that are startup friendly, which is really useful and they have just a huge repository. So whenever I'm like looking for someone, they always have someone that's in their network.
Sera:And I'm an innovation advisor for them. So they have this program where if you go into their registry and you ask them for the manufacturing connection, they first do an MRL assessment to make sure that you are ready for that connection to be made. And if you're not, then they connect you with me so that we can get you to the point where you can have a successful conversation with a manufacturer and you have all the tools. I'm actually giving a a workshop with them after this. And so they're phenomenal.
Sera:They're they have excellent resources online and they have really good people in their ecosystem. So that's Forge. Scale for Climate Tech is in New York and they are this really cool incubator kind of ish program that gives you really structured and tailored way of scaling your manufacturing for your generally, I've noticed that the people that they take in are industrial scale startups, which is like my jam. I really like complex systems. After working in fusion energy, I think that just poisoned me for life.
Sera:I really wanted to work in really complex systems. But, yeah, that's what Scale for Climate Tech does. They just have a really good program. They have subject matter experts. They have accountability boards, and we help them through getting their products from an MRL three to four all the way to, like, seven, eight.
Chris:Talk more about accountability boards.
Sera:Mhmm. You know?
Chris:I've never heard that term before.
Sera:Isn't it so cute? I I actually really liked it. It's basically a group of subject subject matter experts with the founders, and the founders present what their problems are, and we all kind of jam with each other to, like, find a solution for them, which is great because you have the accountability board members kind of fight with each other in a way. It's like, okay. You're saying that, but, like, actually, there's also this part.
Sera:And, like, it's a really cool environment. I've learned a lot because, like, I would be there with people that have been in the field for fifty years. And so I get to also learn a ton, which is cool. Every month, we would check-in and be like, okay. Did you do that?
Sera:What were the results? Did what we said actually make sense and help you? And we would get that constant loop feedback with them.
Nate:Well, so fusion. Let's talk about that. Where did fusion happen?
Sera:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Fusion, basically, after school, I I did satellites, and then I did consumer electronics and then I went into fusion energy. That was a wicked ride for me. Yeah.
Sera:So I used to work at Commonwealth Fusion Systems, which is a spin out out of MIT. I was employee number 34, I believe. Now they're like thousands, which is crazy. They're huge. I respect Commonwealth Fusion Systems so much.
Sera:They're doing stuff really well. And I think they it was a great place to be when I was there. I learned a ton, but basically what I worked on was they're building a tokamak, which is a magnetic confinement fusion device. Basically, in order to create fusion, you need to squeeze plasma to be in a very, very confined space so that the molecules can actually interact with each other and create a fusion reaction. A really good way to do that is through magnets.
Sera:Recent development in high temperature superconductors has allowed for the form factor of the magnets to be really small while the magnetic field is super large. So you would have, like, 20 teslas in one of those d shaped magnets that they would have, which is quite high, which would squeeze the plasma to create fusion. And there's currently working on the demo, which is what I worked on. I specialized in the central solenoid, which was created by superconductor cables. So I worked with a team to create the superconductor cable manufacturing line.
Sera:I was involved from basically beginning to the end until, like, the equipment was delivered and making cables on the manufacturing line, and they have a few of them out in Devon's now.
Nate:Amazing experience.
Chris:I'm I'm curious about the trade offs where you guys had, a fork in the road, and you had to go a particular direction to make it work.
Sera:Yeah. It's interesting because I think this is one thing that CFS did so so well is like they always systematically moved through the short term milestones with the long term vision. So one of the most important things that they started out early on is they were like, our technoeconomics need to make sense. These these cables, like, everything is super expensive, and we need to be able to make them in a sustainable way so that once we go into a larger reactor, we can still justify the cost per meter and so on and so forth. So actually, we we didn't make a ton of trade offs in cost, for example.
Sera:A lot of times, if you're building something one off, you say, oh, whatever. Like, it's gonna be expensive, but it needs to work. We were kind of trying to combine the cost, time, and quality triangle that never collapses on itself, and we were trying to make it freaking collapse on itself. And so I think the main trade off was really around, it really needs to perform, but we just constantly kept the cost at heart as well. And so it it needed to be all three all at once.
Sera:And the way that we went about it is that we said, okay. We will have a journey to getting all three at once and slowly optimizing on each of those corners. And it's not gonna start off that way where at first, we were building really scrappy, like crappy cables and we made it for cheap and we made it quickly so that we can test them. And so that was fine. But then we were like, no, we need to make really high quality cables and then it was really expensive.
Sera:And then we tested that and that worked. And then we slowly started optimizing on the cost by, like, introducing these, like, equipment and, like, longer length builds. And then we slowly made our way through.
Chris:That's really interesting. So it sounds like you iterated on the iron triangle with each revision of the product optimizing for different things.
Sera:Yeah. Pretty much.
Chris:That's interesting. I often say with the iron triangle, you know, like, good, cheap, fast, pick one for hardware because it's oftentimes said for software, pick two. And that just doesn't work for hardware. Like, if you want it fast, it's gonna be more expensive. And if you want it cheap, it's gonna take a long time.
Chris:And quality, you can't compromise on.
Sera:Yeah. Exactly. I mean, specifically with this, it's really proving a technology and physical phenomenon altogether. So the one thing that CFS is really good at and has been a core to even my engineering practice is risk management and risk mitigation strategy that was very systematic and went from bottom up and top down of system architecture. So it was a really cool experience to kind of see something from super concept to actual build, and it was one of the most complex projects I've ever worked on in my life.
Nate:Oh, sure. When you were saying that you guys couldn't collapse the iron triangle, you compromised by saying we'll achieve each of these incrementally. How was that actually structured? Did you guys apply stage gates around each of the corners of the triangle? Or, like, how were you guys tracking against that, and how how was that managed?
Sera:Yeah. I mean, a lot of structure just never works in a startup environment. So stage gates and really robust project management tool just, like, don't work great. I think what was and I kind of alluded to this prior is that really having a really robust risk register and then having test articles that kind of take into account specific risks and say, like, this test article is gonna be tested in this way. It's gonna derisk these risks.
Sera:It's it's like, it really works for us strategically prioritizing what we needed to derisk then was the largest largest risks risks of of the the of the system. And then we would have really good check ins. I think we got into a really good rhythm of in the beginning of the week, we would really do postmortem of what happened the past week, what issues were uncovered, and what derisking tests we were able to do and what the results were. And then on Fridays, like, we learned all of the stuff this week, then what does that mean? And so we got into that really good cadence of being able to not only plan really systematically, but then also revisit that plan so it was, like, fresh.
Sera:And I think a lot of companies and teams really struggle with that part of it. And our team was just, like, really eager to keep up with that and also keep up with each other. Everyone was inherently curious. So I think it just worked really well.
Nate:Cool. I mean, it sounds like you weren't getting too much pressure from, you know, the founding team to, like, move faster than you than you could.
Sera:Oh, we were.
Nate:Oh, you were.
Sera:Okay. No. I take it
Nate:all back. I take it back all everything I was saying. Yeah.
Sera:We were, but I think it was just the team dynamic worked at the time.
Nate:So in in a sense, this was kind of like your your systems engineering crucible. How have you well, Chris, be before I move on to
Chris:my I was gonna ask this I was ask that same question. Well, you know, because I think systems thinking, especially when you're working with something so complex, I can't even wrap my head around fusion energy. That is on literally the cutting edge of the future. And then you go to like an IoT device that like measures a leak under your faucet. It it becomes, I think, that much easier to deconstruct the system and try to create structure within the chaos because it is more manageable.
Chris:Mhmm. The question being, how has your experience with fusion technology informed the processes that you now apply for things that are perhaps less cutting edge?
Sera:Dude, I've been waiting for this question because I I like think about it all the time. I think it informs it directly constantly. And you're absolutely right is that when you've worked on such a complicated system and it it's important to emphasize here that I didn't approach it in a myopic way because I was technically responsible of one subsystem. Right? Like, was I mean, actually, I was lucky enough that I started my role in the three d integration team.
Sera:So I was actually designing a lot of different different magnets.
Nate:No wonder you're so obsessed with materials.
Sera:I'm obsessed with materials in Kontakt because I've seen them in their absolute maximum where they want to just cease to exist, and they are just being put under tremendous pressure, tremendous temperature with, like, weird temperature gradients and all of that stuff, they need to survive that. So working in fusion almost is this case study of engineering extreme where, I mean, there's so many subsystems. And because I was touching several of them, I actually just sat down and I learned fusion. And I like would talk to people with PhDs. I would sit them down and be like, So when a fusion reaction happens, what comes out of it?
Sera:What's a lambda particle? What does that do to the material? What happens if an electron escapes? Like, all of these questions I kept asking and learning and learning and learning as much as I possibly can of the detailed system. And so what that gave me was like, if I can learn this system, I can learn any system.
Sera:And also I was able to understand system interfaces and how they depend on each other and what they could do to each other's performance. So what I do now is like, I always whenever I start a client interaction, my initial thing is I always create a system architecture. I decompose the entire system into chunks and Lego pieces and then I understand what their dependencies are, what their risks are. And then from then on, I can actually go in and say, okay, I know exactly where this is gonna fail or I know exactly what procurement issue you're going to run into because this is a very specific material and you have one supplier that's doing it. And then there's this other thing that you need to actually figure out what material you're gonna use because it can't work in this operational condition the way you said it because this neighboring system is doing this thing.
Sera:And really, always like think in mind maps. So I like always create a mind map of all of these things and it's really just a neural link of systems, operations, and then development effort and failure modes. And then I go chunk by chunk and I solve it with my clients and that's what I do.
Nate:Cool. Do you use tools for the mind mapping, or are you handwriting? Or do you XMind?
Sera:Yeah, dude.
Nate:I've never heard of this. Please tell me. Tell me.
Chris:I believe this is free. Right?
Sera:It is free. The reason I really like XMind is because you write it as if you're writing bullets. So it's like the same commands. And when you create a mind map, it also creates a bulleted list that you can copy paste if you want. Cool.
Sera:Or vice versa, you can just rewrite a bulleted list, and then it automatically converts it into mind map visual.
Nate:I like that. I'm gonna have to play with that. Before we, get off the topic of fusion, I am curious after the time that you were spending there. Kind of what are your thoughts on where it's going? Like, I have some friends that have been working in quantum computing, for example.
Nate:Right? And there's been tons of press. Everybody's got a quantum project or whatever, and my buddy who works in it is like, we're, like, twenty, thirty years away. This is no. Everybody thinks it's gonna happen a lot sooner than it's going to, and everybody's gonna get burnt out before we get there.
Nate:Fusion seems like another one of those moonshot type of things. What's your thought on it? Not about the company, just about the industry.
Sera:Like, the industry itself. Yeah. It's interesting because I think HTS, so high temperature superconductors, really change the game. You're able to power these things in a really efficient manner and then create these really strong magnetic fields. I think scale really matters in fusion or fission.
Sera:Even in fission, there's small modular reactors that are coming about, SMRs, you might have heard. And they're they're really these are the future because, I mean, at the end of the day, if you can manufacture it and construct it easily, that's a huge win. And that is, I think, the crux of it at the end of the day. For fusion, there's obviously the physics component. Like, we need to see that breakeven and beyond can be achieved.
Sera:But, like, there's also just, like, the economics of just how can you actually create a business out of this and, like Mhmm. What kind of chew, which is how you define breakeven. If it's, like, q above one, it means that you are getting more energy out of it than you're putting in. How does the chew compare and what at what q level? Usually, it's like 10 to 20 is like when you are actually going to be able to sell the electricity that you make out of it and make a profit so that the business can continue.
Sera:So with that in mind, I think that the way that the industry is going and the very different approaches, someone's gonna kick it. Like someone's gonna figure it out and it's gonna it's gonna work and then it's going to be okay, like how do we sustainably do this? And because, I mean, Spark for example is a demo mission. It cannot be plugged into the grid. There's way different things that need to happen for it to be plugged into a grid.
Sera:It be like have a life span longer than a few years, etcetera. But I feel like we will get there. I mean, I'm obviously biased, but I think Commonwealth Fusion Systems has just I'm I'm a huge fan of their CEO, and I think that they have a really, really good chance. They're really well funded. They have really good engineers.
Sera:They're approaching it with a lot of derisking. So I'm obviously biased, and I think that they're gonna do really good. Beyond that, like, just to shine a light into vision a little bit. I mean, we have a process that already works and creates clean energy. And it's like Mhmm.
Sera:The bad press that it has due to obviously the really, really terrible events that happened with Fukushima and Chernobyl and 3 Mile Island and all of these. Half of it was safety. Half of it was, like, safety systems and redundancies and fault trees and, like, all of that stuff. But it is really important to note that, like, engineering is a process. And I think with how much we know right now and the safety mechanisms and systems and technologies that exist right now, it's like it looks pretty darn good for vision too.
Sera:And I think that people shouldn't just focus on one or the other, but probably both. France has done a really good job of implementing a ton of fission, and their carbon footprint has decreased significantly. Whereas Germany, for example, has been shutting off fission reactors and completely pivoted to solar and wind, and they're increased in c o two emissions. So it's just like it's interesting to think about it.
Nate:Right. More more trade offs. Yeah.
Chris:How do you think politics influences those decisions? Because it seems like from your perspective that there's pretty clear benefits from these technologies. But when you look at their adoption, they're not being adopted as quickly in in certain geographic.
Sera:Yeah. I mean, policy always, of course, helps or stifles industries. I mean, this is just a part of the reality that we live in, which is as far as I'll get into a political discussion. But the biggest thing I think in this environment is that clean technology more than anything needs to have a good business model. I think at the end of the day, if you are anchoring off of policy or specific administrations to dictate if your techno economics are gonna work out or if your business model is gonna work out, that's a pretty slippery slope, and I think it's not a great business strategy.
Sera:And in the world that we currently live right now, we're going to see that a lot of companies that anchored off of that are probably going to really struggle, but then there's gonna be other ones where there's actual economic benefit. And it's just a smart thing to do because you know what? When you do a life cycle analysis on any type of energy system, one of the things that you're going to see is that the input of a system that is a fuel, if that fuel's free, like wind and solar, that makes it pretty pretty nice Mhmm. In terms of how much it costs and stuff. So my opinion is that if the current political environment encourages people to take a hard look at their business model and creates businesses that are clean, but also have this huge economic advantage.
Sera:I think that's like a really cool, like, innovative corner that will hopefully blossom out of it. This is my, like, silver lining. Right.
Nate:Yeah. I wanna circle back to the pod As we've been talking about the people that you've worked with, the amazing team that you were working with at the fusion company, what have been some of the most interesting conversations that you've had at the pod? I know we we talked about a couple. And what are some lessons that you've kinda taken from those conversations for our audience?
Sera:This is gonna be slightly a cop out because you already mentioned it. But one thing I really appreciate about Warren's episode was just demystifying this funding ecosystem when it comes to hardware, And then also just how there are different ways that you can source your capital stack, and it's not just VC. And this is coming from an investor. So that was really cool. Learning just like, you should be smart about it.
Sera:You should find like that non dilutive avenues of funding, and then you should also create environments where if you're purchasing really large equipment, you should work with people that can lease it to you instead of buying it whole out and reducing your cash flow. In my opinion, finance is a little boring, But it is like a really critical component of a startup and it's what makes or breaks startups. So it's really important to think about it in that way. And then also I think what I learned out of talking to all of my incredible guests is that one, no one knows I think that was a huge learning for me because when you're in this field, you sometimes put pressure on yourself to just like know everything and know everyone. And I've met with all of these incredible people, and they have their expertise, but they also have the humility to be like, that's not my thing.
Sera:And I get advice from others to be able to do that. So that was, like, really cool. These are people I look up to. And then secondly, it's that the problems that you experience in your hardware startup, even big companies experience this stuff because engineering is engineering and hardware is hardware. And unfortunately, gravity is for every project.
Sera:Mhmm. And the the physical world has the same principles for everything. I had Scott Miller who's, I mean, he's a hardware titan. He's he's the the o g and a dear friend of mine. And he, in in the show, talks about a hardware horror story for iRobot where they basically almost had to scrap 30 of the first iRobot Roombas.
Sera:So it's like, these are things that I think are great to hear because I think there's so much that people could share to make others feel more welcome into the hardware community and also normalize that failing is a part of it. The more you fail and the more you learn through them gets you that much closer to something that's gonna work. Mhmm. And there's no shame in that. And I think that's been the biggest learning for me, and I've definitely felt more willing to try different things and work with my clients.
Sera:And some of them are always so surprised that it doesn't work the first time. I'm like, this is super normal. So I think that's the biggest takeaway for me.
Nate:You know, you were talking about that risk matrix.
Sera:What was it that you would put together? Risk register.
Nate:You know, it'd be really cool piece of content for you to create would be like a hardware pitfalls, hardware failures thing that basically is just like a gigantic risk register of problems that hardware companies could make. And it'd be like, when you're having a conversation about a problem, you're like, wait a minute. Think it's in the handbook.
Sera:That's actually a really good idea. I could do it in a risk matrix way. Alright. I'm gonna send that, Nate.
Nate:I think you should do it 100%.
Chris:Add it to the hardware database.
Nate:And add it to the hardware database. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Nate:Your point about the capital stack for hardware was interesting, right, and how it's not just about equity. I I definitely feel like maybe not not as much in, like, hardware investors per se, but definitely with, like, defense oriented investors, a lot more encouragement and focus on grants, non dilutive, even debt vehicles. Right? Like, I feel like
Sera:Yeah.
Nate:You know, a lot of investors are primarily investing in software like debt. Oh. No. But there's this new accelerator program called Black Flag from Harpoon Ventures, and it's all focused on defense and adjacent categories. And, like, one of their value props or one of the the big offerings is that they've got all these mentors that are plugged into the grant system, that are plugged into the federal procurement system, and they can help you unlock that nondilutive funding or those contracts.
Nate:That's really cool. It's a cool trend. I feel like it's kind of a shift in mentality than what has been prevailing wisdom for the last ten years when it comes to financing your hardware company or your company in general.
Sera:Mhmm.
Chris:I I would rebrand this to financial engineering. Right? So you're solving problems that have to do with capital. And there are many different ways to solve those problems, but oftentimes, founders don't have the financial acumen or the right leaders or mentors to provide an alternative. Like, all you hear about in the news is venture, venture, venture, and there are alternatives.
Nate:Yeah. True. Well, and that goes back to that whole notion of, like, just thinking about hardware specifically. There's just not a lot of this kinda data, a lot of this perspective out in the world, right, where people that are just getting started or even late in their career can reference in order to not make the same mistakes someone else did. So going back to your hardware pitfalls matrix, you know, as a hardware founder, I would love that.
Sera:Okay. Well, I'll have to do it then.
Nate:Maybe that's your big takeaway from this podcast. New product. We'll promote it. Yeah. We'll promote it.
Nate:Who do you have coming on next? Who are you excited about or or you wanna preview?
Sera:Well, so I have an entire season that's basically prepped. I've already recorded three of the episodes, episodes and the rest are pretty much set. One, I guess, person I can spoil is I'm gonna have one of the principals of our VC fund called Xtantia. And they very specifically are based out of Germany and England, but they also invest in The US quite a bit. They're a climate investor, but their biggest thesis is that, like, it needs to be climate tech and, like, positive impact, but it has to have a really, really good techno economic model.
Sera:So I kind of just, like, talk to her about misconceptions about VCs and what they really look for.
Chris:I love it.
Nate:And and the podcast is well, Chris, what were you gonna say?
Chris:I was say, what's your favorite or maybe not favorite necessarily, but most informal, pun not intended, Harvard horror story that you get the most return from retelling over and over again?
Sera:Oh my. I have a
Sera:good one. I gave a talk at Hackaday Berlin, and it was one of the sickest events ever. Gave a talk on hardware pitfalls, and it was received so well. I'm so grateful. It's actually on YouTube if people wanna check it out.
Sera:But basically, the hardware horror story that I always mention is one time we were evaluating a supplier for some equipment. This guy that we talked to, they have like a supplier website. You know? It all looks looks sketchy. You can't really tell anything from it.
Sera:And we talked to the guy. Guy definitely knows what he's talking about. It's going really well. He gave us a really good quote. It was one of the cheapest quotes we got.
Sera:Well, we were pretty far in. We got the CapEx presentation from CEO. We got approval for it and everything. And it was COVID, so we were like, right before we were, like, gonna actually sign documents and sign on, we were like, we should probably ask for a tour of their facilities, like, on Zoom or something. Like, it's just we've never really seen where these guys work.
Sera:Thank god we asked because it was a garage. It was and these are like really serious equipment. And we were thinking like ISO certified facility, the safety egress. No. There was like a Ford parked in the side and, like, the cracked floor and just a band saw.
Sera:I can't forget that band saw
Nate:on the corner.
Sera:I was like, could you send pictures of this to us, please? Thank you, sir. And then we had to get back in front of the CEO being like, we had some problems. We're gonna have to ask for more money because we're gonna go with a different supplier. So that I have a picture of the garage, and one of the hardware pitfalls is not having boots on the ground.
Nate:And I think most hardware people have been there in some capacity, you know, where you're just like, this is not the supplier I thought they were.
Sera:Yep. It's just the way it goes. Like, I mean, when you don't see the whites of their eyes, it's different. It anyone that's actually went into a supplier roadshow where you go and meet with everyone, it changes the game. It changes your leverage.
Sera:It changes your perception of what they're gonna be able to do. It changes the way that they their expectations from you and the way that they interact with you. It changes everything. So big learning from that.
Nate:So boots on the ground, you're saying is
Sera:Boots on the ground. Your
Nate:Boots on Yeah. Right. Any any others? Any other hardware horror stories that you've heard from guests? You know, you get your get your own personal ones.
Sera:I do. Let me think. I mean, these are just fun for me to think about because I'm also healing. Yeah. Right.
Sera:This is therapy. It's more therapy. This is therapy. This Yeah. This is is there.
Sera:I, like, I think we should have a separate podcast called hardware therapy. And it's just people just, like, talking about their their horror stories and, like, we heal together. It's like, that's okay. It happened to me too. Like
Nate:Yes. Totally calming music in the background. Think I it'd be fantastic.
Sera:Absolutely. So Namaste. Namaste. No. Yes.
Sera:The lighten me sees the the hardware lighten you.
Chris:Hardware, namaste. There we go. It's the title of the podcast.
Nate:Oh, that's actually kinda catchy.
Sera:We have so many good ideas
Sera:on this pod. Like, we shouldn't release this.
Sera:We should just, like, turn into a business app. Seriously. Too late. Yeah. It's out there.
Sera:It's like it's like AA, but for hardware. Exactly. Exactly. Hello. Like, my name is Sarah.
Sera:I built hardware. Hi, Sarah.
Nate:Although so what does that say about us?
Chris:I I building hardware products is an abusive addiction.
Nate:It kind of is. It kind of is, but it hurts so good. You know? And then there was something you posted on LinkedIn. It was like, we don't do this because it's easy.
Nate:We do it because we thought it was easy. Yeah. And I just thought that like describes my life basically.
Sera:Right? I thought it was so relatable and I was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna post this because I mean, that's that's fair. You need to have a little bit of ignorance. Just to touch.
Chris:Sarah, are you familiar with demotivational posters?
Sera:Yeah.
Chris:Like despair.com is one of my favorite websites.
Sera:Like, sometimes, that's what you need.
Chris:Have you seen that,
Nate:Nate? No. I never have, but I know what I'm gonna do after this.
Chris:They're like motivational posters, but it embraces reality. Yeah. Yeah. Despair.com.
Nate:We need this in Yeah. In this time of time of the world.
Chris:Gosh. We sponsor the pod.
Nate:Last note, are there any books that you're reading that you recommend to the audience? Books on hardware, books on creativity, books on anything?
Sera:The I try to not read too too too much in hardware. I try to, like, have reading be its own thing. Sure. I really freaking love this book. It's called the creative act, a way of being.
Sera:It's like you've definitely seen the book cover. It's really clear. This has been amazing to kind of get myself out of a creative rut. I'm just like, it really normalizes and brings you back into the notion of creation, and I really liked it.
Nate:Cool. The creative act?
Sera:The creative act, a way of being.
Chris:By Rick Rubin.
Sera:Yes. By Rick Rubin. Super good.
Chris:Where can people find you? Where are you on the socials?
Sera:So people can find me on LinkedIn with my name. The Builder Circle Podcast is on all podcast platforms. And, yeah, I'm just a troll on LinkedIn. So if there's a post on hardware, I'm probably somehow a part of it.
Nate:A troll on LinkedIn. LinkedIn. I wouldn't describe you as a troll.
Sera:Thank you. I appreciate that. I I certainly try to be helpful on LinkedIn.
Chris:Well, yeah, thanks for spending the time with us today.
Sera:Thank you. This was so fun. I I've never really done a recording with good friends. So this is, like, super casual, and I loved it.
Chris:TRADEOFFS is hosted and produced by Chris Rill and Nate Patchett. Editing done by the illustrious Alex Michael. Our logo is designed by the talented pixel alchemist, Tanya Shica. If you'd like to be a guest on the show, reach out to us on our website at tradeoffs.fm. You can catch the latest season of the Builder Circle wherever you get your podcasts.
Chris:Link's in the description. If you made it this far, please rate and subscribe to the pod. Nate and I appreciate your support.
