T-25-006 : Yohan Jacob - Consumer Electronics Buyer to Retail Channel Product Launcher
You're listening to TRADEOFFS, a podcast about the trials and tribulations of designing, building, and manufacturing hardware and the people that make it. Each month, we sit down with founders, engineers, and other hardware professionals to understand the unique trade offs inherent in building a business that makes physical products. I'm Nate Padgett, hardware community guy and founder of Informal, a freelance collective that helps companies of all sizes design, build, and ship world class hardware.
Chris:And I'm Chris Rill, startup founder, engineer, and fractional CTO, where I help hardware and software companies build and scale their products. TRADEOFFS captures the best of these conversations so you can learn about the numerous skill sets needed to successfully bring physical products to market. Chris and I had
Nate:a great time speaking with Yohan Jacob for this episode. Yohan is the founder of Retail Bound, a retail channel management consultancy that helps brands launch and scale their products and retailers in both The US and Canada. This conversation was a walk down memory lane for me and Chris as we've had our own experiences with big box stores at Quirky, Canary, and Keen Home. Yohan drops a ton of knowledge in this episode, so let's jump right into it. So, Yohan, I've been familiar with Retail Bound for a long, long time, so I'm really, really looking forward to this conversation.
Yohan:Thanks. Thank you, Nate and Chris, having
Chris:me on your podcast. I think a great place
Nate:to start would just be an intro about yourself, you know, what Retail Bound is.
Yohan:Sure. So been in the industry for about thirty two years. Started my career as a manufacturer in hardware, selling products to retailers like CompuS A, Radio Shack, Best Buy. Made a lot of mistakes along the way. I was successful, but it cost me time, effort, and money.
Yohan:Fast forward a few years, got my MBA here in Chicago where I'm based. I became a very, very large retail buyer in the hardware space in Consumer Electronics where I saw the good, the bad, ugly how brands not just sell to retail, but also worker retailers. Many years ago, I saw a movie called the bucket list. I was like, Hey, I am in my 30s, I don't have a bucket list. So I wrote a list like get married, have a couple of kids.
Yohan:I should write a book, which I read about. Since I've been on both sides of the retail buyers debt, let me write a how to book. They got published in the mid 2000s on Amazon called Learn How to Sell Your Products Retailers. Literally sold thousands of copies worldwide. I quit my high paying 6 figure job at Office Match to start a consulting company from scratch.
Yohan:Since 2008, our team's consulted and mentored over 4,000 brands around the world. From Consumer Electronics, sporting goods, home improvement, toys, housewares, small appliances. After seventeen years, we are the largest retail channel management agency in North America. 200 sales reps, 40 distributors, and we're going over 150 major retailers like Apple, Best Buy, Costco, Home Depot, QVC, Target, Walmart, Ma and Pa shops. So our job is to launch a brand into a retail like Apple or Best Buy or
Chris:Costco, They'll actually mash the growth till eventually they can replace us with Bobby or Susie as an employee to take it over themselves. This is more for the audience. Is this like a talent agency for an artist? So you work with the brand and help them grow in the ways that they're looking to grow?
Yohan:Yeah, in another sense, yes. Or I use analogy, you're paying me to paint your house. I can teach you how to paint your house, or for a few dollars more, I'll paint your house for you while you do other things like mow the lawn or play with the kids. So, for one to five years, our clients are things like fundraising, developing new products. And then once business at a certain level, we de engage and then the client takes it over there.
Yohan:We give the keys back to them to basically run the business.
Nate:Understood. You'd mentioned you were working with some really big brands. Can you talk about some of those and some larger consumer product brands as well?
Yohan:So, lot of our clients are more of emerging brands, right? We've had clients as big as Unilever as well as retailers like Sears as their retail channel manager. But we have a lot of brands that range from like zero to about 120,000,000 annual sales. I would say our average client, for around $30,000,000 annual sales, but I'll give you a gavel. Coming in your neck of the woods, a company called Cujo, C U J O, they made a really cool home firewood device.
Yohan:You basically plug it, look at the candle, you plug it in and you add a little smile, you're good. If you have a frown, you'd hat, right? Your baby cam, your smart garage opener, your thermostat, right? They brought us on board right in time for the Consumer Trial Show in 2016 and within two years, we grew them so quickly. They went from nine employees to 180 in three countries.
Yohan:We got into 18 of the top 25C retailers like Staples, Best Buy, Costco, QVC. Today now they're in at least 30,000,000 homes as a white label, part of your Comcast Charter router protecting your home Internet from being hacked.
Chris:Yeah. I remember coming up in the mid twenty tens, like the hardware renaissance, you know, being a CES and seeing Cujo.
Yohan:Yep. In fact, thinking of CES, I'll be there again in January. It'd be my twenty fifth year. Wow. So lot lot lot of stories.
Yohan:Lot of stories.
Nate:I'm sure a lot of stories. How much of that crazy growth for Cujo was due to retail strategy and how much you guys opened up?
Yohan:We opened a lot of their retail business because none of the founders had the experience in retail and they figured it's easy to hire someone who's been doing this for fifteen, twenty, thirty years and at least get them to a low where they can hire someone to take it over, right? Because a lot of startups we work with can't justify hiring someone's salary and benefits and all that, but hey, for an hourly rate for a couple hours a week, hire Yohan on a fractional basis to get most along the way, so they can hire Susie or Billy to take it over.
Nate:Very cool. What was the first hardware product that you helped do this? I guess, first client.
Yohan:The first one that I helped with a brand called Upright. They made a smart posture tracker.
Nate:I need that. I grew up with my dad being like, Your posture is terrible.
Yohan:Step straight, step straight, right? I mean, it's really cool device. You put your lower back and we got into Apple, Best Buy, QVC. Well, probably one of my first, I call, hard devices that had IP. When we first started the business in 'eight, it was mostly inventors, really ma and pa, right?
Yohan:Once crowdfunding started getting more popular, you know, 2014, 2015, we started to see a lot more unique products like Cujo, Upright, you know, bunch of other brands.
Nate:Yeah. I I started my career out working with early stage inventors as well. That is quite the community, but there's some real gems in there. I love some of those people.
Yohan:There are, and I tell a lot of our reps, our distributors, any retailers, working with a smarter brand, especially an inventor, one where you need is patience. Because not like a bigger brand like Sony that has a lot of check and balances and can get things done quicker, right? A young brand like Canary, right, or other brands in that space when they first start out, they don't know what's going happen in the next six weeks, not the next six months, right? So, I tell our reps like when we have to move our deadline, hey, it's not launching at Best Buy on January 1, it probably will be till April 1. The rep's like, why?
Yohan:Well, because X, Y, and Z, which we have no control, we're a small brand, waiting in line get to things done. Mhmm. So I would say that for many brands, you need patience.
Nate:Hardware is hard. God, we hate to say it, but it's the truth. Correct. Chris, how did you guys approach it? Because I know you guys made a big push into retail at Canary.
Nate:Right?
Chris:Yeah. So this is going back 2016, 2015. At least at the time, consumer electronic products are still primarily purchased in brick and mortar stores. It was, like, 80% back then, and I think it's probably still very much this to this day. I don't know.
Chris:What what what is the statistic today?
Yohan:It's around 70%. Okay. The more complicated it is, people will do research online and then take it to their local Best Buy or regional retailer to talk to a blue shirt and maybe showroom it as an example. Mhmm.
Chris:So with that in mind, we were very aggressively pushing our retail strategy. And we got very fortunate to have an early hire by the name of Mark Schuster, a veteran in consumer electronics, especially with respect to brick and mortar retail. Yep. And he had just built out Dropcam's retail strategies. And when I was talking to him, interviewing him, I was super suspicious.
Chris:I'm like, what is the head of sales for our largest competitor doing interviewing for a job? And he basically says, every time he went to sell Dropcam to Best Buy, Home Depot, all these different companies, they were asking him about our product. So they're like, well, how does Dropcam compare to Canary? And this was actually uncovered in our interview. But he basically says, I've been defending Dropcam against you for, like, the last year,
Yohan:and you guys aren't even
Chris:on the market. You just had a, you know, an Indiegogo video. Yep. And so, honestly, we got really lucky. We had an industry veteran come in, basically say, I know exactly what to do to get you from zero retailers to 10,000.
Chris:So we basically gave him the keys to our retail strategy and supported him in whatever he needed, and, you know, the rest is history. So we didn't need, like, a a retail bound. I I we should actually get Mark on the pod to talk to him about his approach, but I imagine for a lot of folks who are a small team, bringing on fractional expertise is a very cost effective way to leverage their wisdom.
Nate:Yeah. I was gonna say, like, you had Mark salaried. Right? Like, so he was on
Chris:Oh, yeah.
Nate:Yep. Most teams probably can't afford that unless they're, like, you know, super well capitalized. And especially if they had a really big crowdfunding campaign, like, we all know that money is not as much money as everyone thinks it is. That's correct.
Yohan:That's correct.
Chris:Mark sat on the bench for far longer than anyone wanted him to because we were late in shipping our product, which is an all too familiar story when it comes to hardware. Right? So I'm imagining if you looked at our capital expense for Mark over the time that he was sitting on the bench just kind of getting his plans together, the product was late by probably, like, fifteen months. Wow. It's memories I tried to block out.
Chris:Maybe it was closer to twelve months.
Yohan:Yeah. I know. Right? Mark was getting paid no matter if he sold or not. Was getting paid.
Yohan:And how can I how can I get that gig, by the way? Where can I sign up?
Nate:Well, I was gonna I was gonna ask, because I'm sure you've encountered this too, Yohan. Right? Where you have a client, you're hot and heavy and ready to go, you sign a contract, things are and it's just like hurry up and wait. Like how
Yohan:So do Opera is a good example. So there was an issue with the three ms stickers. Basically, you know, the device they had where the three ms stickers were not sticking. If you have hairy back or hairy chest, right?
Nate:Yeah, well don't stick it on me.
Yohan:Yeah, well, no, I won't comment on that, right? But they had to take like three months off. So we said, don't roll pause for our contract. I don't want to sell air and promise any retailers you're ready to deliver on January 1, is really June 1. So, we just went on pause for three months while they fixed their QA issue with the factory on the stickers.
Yohan:Once they got their shit together, pardon my French, then we reengaged and the rest is history. Cool.
Nate:That's great. So you maintained relationship with them, you were checking in, and then you were able turn on when they needed you again.
Yohan:We treat our clients with our money. We're not gonna stress you out, hey, why not pause? When you're ready to reengage in a month or three months, we'll turn the faucet back on. Not a big deal. That's why in his seventy year, knock on wood, we've never been fired as a consultancy.
Yohan:Why? A, we're very selective with we work, but two, we want to be partners with our clients for a long time. Most clients keep us on board around two to two and a half years on average. They replace this way VP of Sales to replace what we did the last two and a half Have years, by the
Nate:you ever fired a client?
Yohan:I fired seven clients in seventeen years.
Chris:Seven? Seven,
Nate:yes. I'm trying to get better about firing clients. It's I think a necessary skill everyone needs to develop.
Yohan:So, it's funny you mentioned it. So, we're very selective on who we take on as clients. We look at three things. One is the product, is it unique? Is it different?
Yohan:Is there IP, right? So Upright, Kooge, all the brands we work with had hit that first Podcast. The second one to look at is are they capitalized? You know, Best Buy is not a cheap date like my wife and kids, so you got to be able to afford their terms, all the fees. So if you don't have the capital to handle large POs, wait, lease CDs, get paid, as well upfront certain dollars for training and promotions, Uber, right?
Yohan:So that's the next spot. But the third box, look at the tangles between us guys, we call it no asshole rule, no putts rule. They're not nice people, we ain't working with them. You know, like a marriage, you hope it goes a distance. But yeah,
Nate:I like it.
Yohan:We fired seven clients because of either not trustworthy, they dropped the ball and then they dropped the ball. Yes, Best Buy holds up responsible, but it hold me accountable because I'm just shwuck between the brand. I can't be burned or else I'll never be able to sell another product to Best Buy ever again.
Nate:Exactly. I mean, I would imagine this is a highly, highly relationships oriented business, and you can't be useful to your clients if Best Buy doesn't want to talk to you.
Yohan:That's right. Mean, yeah, you grab the client a short term gig, it's a one year, two years, but Best Buy, seventeen years with us. So, like hiring an employee, my philosophy is I hire slow and I fire fast. So if that client is trying to show signs of weakness, but we can't get it fixed, then we'll say, No, we're done as of December 1 because I can't risk relations with my retailers, my distributors or our reps.
Nate:Has that largely been driven because clients turned out to be assholes, or just the reality maybe, you know, runway was running out for the client and it just didn't make sense to keep engaging?
Yohan:Things change. Maybe they get bought by a bigger company, they hire a new employee, be our main point of contact, their CFO that's actually finding things with payables, there are factors that have issues in China, right? A whole different things, right? But at end of the day, we hold a relationship with the retailer and if that client is trying to show issues, our job is raise your hand first, let's take a time out. And if they can't get their act together, let's just go our several ways and call it a day.
Yohan:And buyers just like that. They want straight answers, they like being sold to, because if we drop the ball, the buyer looks bad, right, in front of his bosses. I tell clients, as well as in my book, my second edition I wrote, published on Amazon earlier this year is to be successful in retail. And Chris, probably attest this, make the buyer job easier, make it easier, you're guaranteed opportunities that you wouldn't give it to you for brands that are making that buyer's job a lot harder. Pretty simple stuff.
Yohan:It's not very complex, but a lot of brands, big and small, find many creative ways to f it up.
Nate:I imagine.
Chris:What are some of the ways that are easily fixable? So like the typical ways that companies will mess this up, but are preventable.
Yohan:The biggest is communication. I've heard telebar upfront now, if there's an issue with the factory, right, a potential cost increase, which is a no no in retail, Or maybe, I think a lot of people will just wait, maybe we'll get better and it does not. Tell a buyer upfront now, he or she can be able to make adjustments in your strategy now, then wait till you're at DEFCON seven, it's too late for them to make a course correct, but also filling out SEV sheets correctly at the right time versus filling it half assed. Well, I don't have the UPC code, I don't have the price, I don't have the copy. Again, the buyer's job is hard as it is to manage a large P and L.
Yohan:I'll give you a good example. Let's say Canary submits a copy to Best Buy for web copy or in store. And let's say in two months you hire a new VP of Marketing at Canary and she wants to change a word, you know, in the copy, right? Or a new image, right? No offense, Best Buy is not going to stop to change a word on a web page or in the store.
Yohan:Once done, it's done. You know, they'll do it, but it's going wait because they have other priorities, right? A new VP of Marketing wants to change and it's important to her, but for Joe's sake's fact, he would care less, by the way.
Nate:What was the most complicated product that you guys have brought to retail?
Yohan:We have a client right now that's kind of complicated, it's doing really well, client called Ultrahuman. Ultrahuman. And what do they make? They make a smart ring. Cool.
Yohan:They raise probably about a million dollars on Kickstarter, but it's complicated. Like Aura, it has a sizing kit. So there's a two step. We got to first ship out to the customer a sizing kit, and then once you get that, then you get the ring. And it's four colors, right?
Yohan:So for QVC, they actually sold between four, six thousand rings last weekend. That's a lot of rings. Right? So that's probably one more complicated clients we've had to work with in the last And
Nate:that's just through QVC, so they're not in brick and mortar yet?
Yohan:Oh, they are. They are. They are. We are they're also in Verizon stores, Best Buy Canada stores, Walmart stores. They're online at costco.com, SandsClub dot com.
Yohan:But for in store, we have a display at Best Buy Canada, Walmart US, Verizon, like Aura. You gotta a size first and then you gotta hopefully have your size in stock. If not, it has to be ordered.
Chris:Yeah, new I'm Aura customer. I didn't even know that Ultrahuman existed.
Yohan:Yep. Or is a great brand. Why I like Ultra Human is it's more ring like. It's a lot lighter, I think. It's really smooth, there's no edges.
Yohan:They've done a really good job, but it's funny, in 2016, you couldn't go to CES without throwing a tennis ball, hit a smartwatch, you know, it was a Fossil, Whipthemes, Fitbit, Pebble. Basis, all these different All these guys, right? Now, the hot category is smart rings. Every other month I get a phone call, Hey, I have a cool smart ring. Can you represent me?
Yohan:And I say, No. Why? Because we can't work on competing brands, right? But we're seeing a lot of smart rings. Samsung just launched the market this year.
Yohan:Apple, you know, there's rumors if they show up, I guarantee you that a lot of these brands and they're all good brands, they're all great brands, but eventually, once Apple,
Nate:you know They'll get subsumed.
Yohan:The those tier two brands will eventually will be diminished, by
Chris:the way, unfortunately. Apple comes for everybody. Yeah. Apple comes everybody
Nate:in some capacity.
Chris:Yeah. There's rumors that Apple's working on a smart camera as well. So, eventually, it's taken them, like, ten years since we spoke with Apple. Cars, cameras, range.
Nate:To find what their next thing is gonna be. I'm I'll be totally real. I'm a little bit worried for Apple just because I don't know if they have direction. You know? I think they're trying to figure that out.
Chris:We'll see. Is this your hot take? Nate Nate's hot take.
Nate:It is my hot take. I just think we've seen this movie before, you know, and the guy who came in and saved it is not around anymore.
Chris:So Yep.
Nate:You know, let's see.
Yohan:Well, I have a lot of stock in Apple, so hopefully, they they don't they don't go the wrong way like they did back in the early eighties.
Nate:Other hot take is I think that Apple and Google to some extent, I think it's all the big device makers kinda sucked all the air out of the room in consumer hardware and have made it really difficult for startups to succeed in this space and that some competition would be a good thing.
Chris:Agreed. Well, here's here's a question for for you both. Is it that the big companies took the air out of the room, or was it the companies creating expectations that they couldn't live up to?
Nate:Both. I think both are I think both are very true. But but here's here's what I mean by took all the air out of the room. When you have the choice between joining an innovative startup that is, like, scraping by because it's a hardware startup or making $300,000 at Apple, what are gonna do? You know?
Nate:And it just becomes really difficult to get the best of the best when you're when those are the dynamics at play. You know?
Chris:I don't know. I I mean, I feel like as an engineer, you know, going to Apple and making $300,000, yeah, while that's nice, you're a cog in the machine. And Correct. That machine, you're gonna learn a lot. Like, a lot of the team at Canary left, they went to Apple, and they went to some of the other big companies.
Chris:It's super proud of the team that we built, but it's a different job. Right? Mhmm. You go from being, like, say, one of 31 of 40 to now being one of 10,000. Right?
Chris:Yeah. It's a different job.
Nate:Yeah. Totally.
Chris:But it's don't I don't think it was the big companies just buying the talent out of the market. I just think if your product is good enough for it to exist against an Apple product, you will succeed.
Yohan:Yeah. And my philosophy is, you know, it's good working for a company like a Sony or an Apple because, A, you learn some processes, right, where startups are all over place, there's always a fire drill. But two, you have a good name on the resume where you're officially trying to secure VC money, having an Apple or Sony on your resume does help to a point. One of our former clients called Next, they're actually in your neck with Nate, called Next Playground near Cupertino. It was a bunch of former Apple employees.
Yohan:Think they basically started their own company in like the Next Gen Wii, which basically use your body, your arms to play the game. They raised $30,000,000 on their own. Their lead investors were Samsung, the National Bathroom Association and some former actors from Marvel. I won't tell who they are. So they did a pre launch last summer, so it closed up 10,000 devices.
Yohan:Basically, it was a cool little device and you get a bunch of games from basketball, the tennis, to Dance Revolution, right? It's like a Wii without the remote, right? They are launching in store at Target, Best Buy, and Walmart as we speak right now.
Nate:Very cool.
Yohan:But I think they're gonna be the next next unicorn out there, by the way, where they're going. I'm not sure
Chris:if this is a question directed at Next or necessarily, like, the general hardware startup. What surprises are your customers initially confronted with? Right? So they approach you with a certain set of assumptions that, you know, you're gonna get them in a 10,000 brick and mortar stores overnight. You know, retail bound is is incredible.
Chris:What are some of the realities that once you start an engagement that you need to kind of check their expectations?
Yohan:So I always say retail is a marathon, not a sprint. They expect, oh, we got hired at Retail Bound, we'll be in Best Buy tomorrow. No. And plus, no, it's nice to have a Best Buy or a Walmart on your resume, right, and helps with fundraising. Those are the easiest retailers to work with.
Yohan:I mean, peel back the curtain like, oh my god, it's a lot of work, you know, with chargebacks and doing a buyer's, you know, emotion or buyer's change, today the buyer loves you, buyer leaves, you're the new buyer and he doesn't like you, wants to bring his other vendors in. So, a lot of politicking as well. Buyer's always asking for more money, more margin, more this, right? So, we kind of tell our clients that our goal is to start small because we don't want to outstrip your resources. So, philosophy is we call the slow burn.
Yohan:We'll start small. Maybe it's regional retailers like Micro Center, which has more volume in 25 stores in computers than Staples does in a thousand stores, by the way. Maybe it's on air, a QVC or ASN where you can demonstrate the product, maybe Calmwell, Habakkuk Schlemmer, Shopper Image, right? Try to find alternative retail than the big box like Walmart, Best Buy, those are the major leagues. Let's start with the more smaller retailers and make sure it's even happening.
Yohan:Your sales are consistent, your supply chain, very big, fifty twenty twenty, is bulletproof, and third, you're getting paid in time by retailers. And once sales, inventory and cash flow are rocking and rolling, then makes sense to the skill. But a lot of young brands think retail is easy, once you get the green light and the bar says go, the clock starts ticking and if you don't meet the bar expectations, there's 20 other brands way in line to take your spot, by the way.
Nate:Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned Best Buy Canada earlier when we were talking. Keenahome also had some meetings with Best Buy Canada. Why Best Buy Canada versus Best Buy regular?
Nate:Are they different?
Yohan:Yes. I mean, while they operate in name, right, and look, they operate a little different. They don't offer the same margin structures, the same deals, same marketing levers, right? We tell clients typically for Best Buy US, it's a much bigger entity. You know, Best Buy Canada is much smaller.
Yohan:Canada in general is a much smaller country and typically when we launch brands, we start US first, there's more opportunities and then once you get US right, we have some case studies, then we go up north to Best Buy Canada, Costco Canada, Home Depot Canada, Walmart Canada and other retailers up there. Best Buy Canada is a great retailer, we have a couple of our Canadian clients who start with Best Buy Canada first, it's in their backyard and great way to show their family, hey look, Mom, dad, I'm at Best Buy Canada in Vancouver or Edmonton, and it's a nice, you know, pat on the back. But they're they're a good retail account, by the way.
Nate:Chris, are you guys in Best Buy Canada?
Chris:Oh, yeah. We I think at our peak, we were at 10,000 brick and mortar stores in US, Canada, The UK, Germany. Like, we we were trying to be the first into a lot of into a lot of markets. First mover advantage, arguably first mover disadvantage.
Yohan:Think Cujo was the same way, Chris, like you guys. They want to be the first because they knew in 2015 there were a lot of other smart home devices that were jumping the market, people getting all these swarm stuff in their house and afraid of being hacked, the baby can that's strapping your kids, right? And they want to be the first of all the big ones. So, that's by the biggest in their space. QVC being the biggest in their space.
Yohan:Amazon, right? They want to be first with the four big players. And then from there, go down to the second, like a Fry's or a Market Center or a or Apple Fry's.
Nate:Rest in peace.
Chris:Rest in peace. So sad.
Yohan:Yeah. So sad.
Chris:Yeah. I've got a question, and one of the things that we learned early on, and this is a result of Mark coming on board, was terms. Right? So our initial terms with Amazon were not good, and we didn't know that they weren't good because we didn't know any better. It's like, oh, great.
Chris:This is the margin structure that Amazon's offering. And then when Mark came in, Mark goes, this is awful. I hope you guys didn't sign this. Right? I'm curious to set expectations, especially around margin or marketing spend.
Chris:Like, what would you be advising on the general accepted, like, here's the type of margin you should be giving to your retail partners? So, a couple of things.
Yohan:So, just talked about this. I had a sales call yesterday with a young brand in the pet space. We just talked about pet products. Right? And chewy.com reached out to them because they had a business campaign.
Yohan:Great. And I said, well, what were the terms? Was kind of curious. Well, it's net 90. All right.
Yohan:I assume it's stock. No, drop ship. So they buy one unit today. You don't get paid for ninety days. That seems pretty and you got to pay freight.
Yohan:And there's a back end rebate like, you sign this? Oh, yeah. I'm like, you gotta be kidding me. Right? Unfortunately, a lot of brands make mistakes.
Yohan:I made those mistakes too back in
Chris:the Can you break that down exactly? Because I don't think a lot of folks getting into hardware. Right? You're an engineer. You got a really great idea.
Chris:You know how to build something. But logistically, what does that mean, net 90?
Yohan:So net 90 means payment terms. Typically, most retailers, they don't pay upfront. They don't pay a percentage. They basically order a case of 10 units, you ship them on November 21, it arrives on December 1, that's when the clock starts ticking. Payment terms vary from thirty days to ninety days, sixty being the average for one of the bigger retailers like a Best Buy, Walmart, Target, right?
Yohan:So if my payment terms are sixty days, then if I invoice Target on December 1, hopefully by February 1 I will get paid my payment minus any returns and and any other program fees I might be negotiating upfront with the buyer, by the way.
Chris:And and as a small company, you've already purchased that piece of hardware likely from your manufacturer because you usually get net zero terms you're a small company from your manufacturer. So you've had that product. You've already paid for it. It's in the warehouse, and then you don't get paid until ninety days after you ship it to the customer Yep. Being paid for by that's
Yohan:It's tough. Very tough.
Chris:And that's the cash flow problem that a lot of hardware companies have to deal with.
Yohan:And that's why we start with smaller retail, they may have maybe a net 30 terms, or maybe offer a early payment just like 1%, 10 net 30, meaning that by paying invoice in ten days or less, the retailer gets additional 1% off the invoice, right? So, we find smaller retailers or they don't take a chunk where, you know, maybe they take a case pack. You're not going go out of business that I had to wait sixty days to get paid on 16 units. However, if it's 1,600 or 16,000 units, yeah, I will definitely, you know, go out of it. Like for automotive retailers, honestly, only can hear their terms, there's no joke, is net $3.65.
Yohan:Wait, what? Yep, I was waiting for that. What? Yeah, so automotive retailers, the bigger REITs like Pep Boys, AutoZone, it's a year. That's wild.
Yohan:That's bananas, as we say, right? No, it's negotiable, the bigger brands aren't going pay that, it's negotiable, right? But for smaller brands, they're going to go to Pep Boys, AutoZone, right? There's Inner Mary's, factory agents that will help you out, but yeah, and that's why I don't have any clients in our business because I'm not telling you, yeah, you gotta wait a year to get paid. F that.
Yohan:I'm not doing that. So
Chris:Like, maybe maybe you're not the right guy for automotive.
Yohan:Well, we'll sell we'll sell out to Walmart or Target. Right? We're not gonna sell the Pep Boys. It's it's their terms are ridiculous, so we don't we try to avoid again, we we treat our clients with our money. I ain't waiting a year to get paid.
Yohan:Why would I wait for the client to wait a year if
Chris:they get paid by a retailer? And so so in terms of margin, like, what's the range? If somebody came to you and they said anything over this amount is crazy and you should really not sign it. Is there like that magic number?
Yohan:There isn't. Because as you know, Chris, from your days at Canary, it depends on the program. Depends on how many stores. Is it net net, where it can be the lowest cost at a Walmart or the cost plus like at Best Buy, flows and all fees like freight, defectives, marketing, co op, right? So what we do for our clients, generally speaking, usually in the first month of engagement, we do a pricing model and we bring it in four categories: .com, catalog, regional retailers and national retailers.
Yohan:And again, I bring out the pricing, you know, showing both fixed costs like 3PL and product library insurance, to variable costs like returns, rep fees, marketing, right? And we kind of show here's the floor, here's the ceiling cost, but unfortunately I can't say with this product, this iPhone case, it'd be 15 points of margin at Costco, as you know, take less margin, where at Hamburger Schlemmer which is killer, they want 60 five-seventy points for the exact same item. So, clients ask me, I can't say, oh, it's 35 points across
Chris:the board because not every retailer buys exactly the same. I guess the point I think that you're making is it's really complicated. There are a lot of different terms that go into these deals and so it's not just about the margin, it's about all the other terms and conditions that go into that agreement.
Yohan:I always tell our clients when they're at a trade show and a buyer says, what's my cost? I say, give a range and margin, but I never put a cost, never put a cost on a deck because you don't know the rules of the game, right? Is it .com? Is it one store? A thousand stores?
Yohan:Is there rebates? Who pays for freight? What about returns? Defectives? Because at the of day, if you quote wrong, and usually for most brands they quote under because they want to get the deal.
Yohan:And you know, Chris, it's easy to go down in price, hard to go up in price. Very hard.
Chris:You can never raise your prices. Never.
Yohan:Nope. So if you make an error in pricing, always price high, always come down, by the way. Yeah.
Chris:And we actually did that for our Indiegogo campaign. I was actually looking back at some of the campaigns. I'm I'm impressed that Indiegogo still has some of the websites up. We actually forecasted nine months. We shipped in eighteen.
Chris:So we weren't eighteen months late. We were only nine months later than we expected. But we we initially went out with a higher pricing structure for colors. Right? So we thought that it would cost more money and that they would be lower volume, so we actually thought that it would be, like, a $250 item.
Chris:It turns out that we actually got the cost down to be 200 for all the different items. So there was a reduction in cost as we scaled and learned more about our pricing strategy. So, yeah, pricing in general is a complicated topic that's probably saved for a different conversation. Brand and
Yohan:for brands like Canary or brands that had a subscription model, it's a narrow layer of mix because, okay, you get the hardware whiskey at cost and then make up on the subscription, you know. So, yeah, pricing is one of the more complicated topics, and I would say 8 of every $10, generally speaking, we work with, usually underpriced before they meet with us. So we have to recalibrate their pricing before we talk to a buyer like a Best Buy or Costco.
Chris:What are some of the reasons why companies will struggle at retail? The biggest one is lack of attention, like a marriage or a relationship with your boyfriend or girlfriend.
Yohan:I think the biggest issue with a lot of brands is they get that high. I got into Best Buy, great, off the next account. Wait a second, you spent, you know, 6 months wooing me, and now you wooed me, where's Chris? Where's Nate? And I always told my vendors when I was a buyer, I said I have one pet peeve and what's that?
Yohan:It's a lack of follow through. If I'm calling you, it's not because I'm bored and, you know, I'm calling because there's an issue and you need to solve it yesterday because if not, my job is at stake and no offense, I'm losing my job because you f ed up. Right? But I think if brands tend to over communicate, find ways to make the buyer's job easier or try to make the buyer's job look like a hero, there will be no issues. When you
Chris:say lack of attention, is this around marketing, not getting customers in the drawer to consider it? Like, because I imagine if a product is selling at retail, the buyers are happy. So, like, why would a product be removed from a store if it's popular? Well,
Yohan:a couple of things here. So, it's not just popular. I mean, Merrick, just because you're big dog, doesn't mean you're the only dog. Right? There's a lot of people who are lurking in the weeds.
Yohan:Right? Smart cameras, there are a lot of them out there, right? Aldo, Nest, Ring, right? You are the only brand out there, right? So it's because you've got the buyer today.
Yohan:What happens when that buyer leaves? You break the square one, right? Or you get Best Buy, but Walmart comes who has more stores. Listen, hey, I want a superior deal. Now, Best Buy has been put on a shelf and now you've spent all your time, effort and love on Walmart.
Yohan:That's why they say, what the hell? I see all these ads online or in store in print and then all a sudden it changes relationship, right? So, you need someone that absolutely want to well in retail, regardless of rebound, you just got to manage it. In other words, marketing, where it's building a relationship with the buyer, lower prices, more marketing, whatever. I would say a lot of brands are usually on the fence and your goal as a supplier is being on the top of that fence because the business does change where the buyer's boss says you need to cut your space by half.
Yohan:Who do I cut? Look at Canary? Arlo? Ring? Very challenging.
Yohan:Very challenging.
Chris:And to expand on that just for for folks who have not sold in retail, there's not unlimited retail shelf space. So you're competing for other products. And so can you talk through some of the competition that the retailer will put on the consumer product companies to, I would say, maximize their revenue?
Yohan:Yeah. They'll find creative ways, right, to hopefully drive more sales, right, Where it's promotions, where it's trading, right? It displays, right? But I would say that just because you negotiate a deal with Best Buy today doesn't mean you're done. You know, most buyers will continue to keep negotiating from cradle to grave.
Yohan:So, they you're kicked out or you decide you know, it's too much for my blood, I'm tapping out, right? But buyers are always pushed by their senior leaders, I was one of them. I was the DMM that pushed my buyers, hey, we need this revenue, we need this profit, we need this inventory turns, and that brand is not hitting those three KPIs, you're out of here. So, I would say it's very stressful for both the buyer as well as the vendor to make the relationship work on both sides, right? But any day, the buyer can try a way to drive sales, grow the profits and make sure we return inventory number of times.
Yohan:So, there's creative ways from promotions to marketing events you can participate in, to social events that it makes sense for your brand, by the way.
Nate:That makes sense.
Yohan:Not easy, but if it's easy, I would be out a job today, Chris.
Chris:Yeah, that's true. Yeah. This is why I leave the retail side to the retail experts. I'll keep my head down working on technology.
Yohan:Less gray hair. Less gray hair, right?
Chris:Oh, yeah, for sure.
Nate:Yohan, I know you've talked a bit about considerations when you're trying to sell into retail, but how do you respond to a team that's like, fuck it, I don't need retail, I can just do it direct.
Yohan:So, two ways. So, for brands who say, why should I go in retail? I have a strong DEC program, I have a loyal customer front, Why do I go into retail? I say we can make sense for two reasons. One, a Best Buy, a Apple or Costco gets you street cred or legitimacy, you're a brand.
Yohan:I mean, no offense, the three of us can go to the Canton Fair Shanghai show in China, source our product, put our name on it, put it on Amazon. Are we a brand? We're not, right? Second reason why I think retail makes sense for many brands is getting into retail where it's brick and mortar, online, on air, in print, gives you access to another customer that wouldn't find you. Yes, Amazon is the big bad dog, two thirds of news shows happen on Amazon versus Google, I get it, but Amazon, not easy to work with as a manufacturer, especially if you're a 1P versus a 3P vendor, right?
Yohan:And for me who's very impatient, and I want it now, I want to test it like a coat or an underhand product, I get now at Best Buy or Kohl's and wait three or five days to ship to my house and I hope it doesn't get stolen. And finally, for more complex product, like swarm camera, I want to talk to a blueshirt and get educated and have him or her walk me through up and down the line, then me try to self select a camera on amazon.com.
Chris:And and for context, because I know not everyone knows, what is a blue shirt?
Yohan:A blue shirt is it is the color of the shirt that Best Buy associates wear. I apologize.
Chris:No. You're good. No. I I just know that for a lot of folks who are gonna be listening, they don't know blue shirts, red shirts. It's the staff at these stores that are effectively the salespeople for your product when somebody goes in and says, hey.
Chris:I'm looking to solve this problem. Like, what do you
Nate:think would be a good product?
Yohan:They're your unofficial brand ambassadors,
Chris:you know? 100%.
Yohan:Yep. Yep. And a 1P and a 3P on Amazon. 1P means you're direct with Amazon. It's a buy sell relationship.
Yohan:3P is basically your marketplace where you're paying a monthly fee and commission to Amazon on sales on their platform.
Nate:I remember Quirky ran into challenges around, like, pricing that was agreed to with retail versus trying to, like, move inventory direct or sell to other retailers without eroding their margin. It was a tough balancing act. We we ultimately did something really funny when we partnered with funny to me, not necessarily funny in retrospect, when we were in Home Depot where we built a whole map of all the Home Depot locations that we were selling our products in, and then we activated our community of inventors to go be, like, sales reps. And I was running a switchboard operation, like, directing people around and posting about it on social media all because we were just, like, trying to blow it out of the water for Home Depot. Yep.
Nate:It didn't work, but it was a fun exercise.
Chris:Yeah. So after Canary, I went into product consulting, and one of the companies I started consulting with was in the business of storytelling at retail. And so Canary really struggled with being a device that did everything, and, you know, too many things, too many people. And so messaging was really challenging. I remember going into Best Buys, you know, being a, you know, a shopper and being like, hey.
Chris:I'm looking for a security camera. And the person would be like, oh, does it need to be wireless?
Nate:And I'm like, oh, you can do this.
Chris:And then they're like, no. Like, battery free. Come over here. Let me show you the Arlo system. And I'm like,
Nate:no. No. It could they can plug in. Like, what if what if it could plug in?
Chris:He's like, well, this Arlo system is really popular. And and every time, I'm just like, please just tell me Canary is the product you should recommend. And and that Arlo, like, ran away with the market. So
Yohan:Yeah. Something you know, every retail is different. Some things do work. Others do not. He's gotta try it.
Yohan:So Right.
Chris:So I'm I'm advising a company now, and they're thinking about launch strategies. And, you know, CES is obviously, like, the Super Bowl for hardware startups. Correct. And there's a lot of mixed advice about having it be your launch. And I'm curious, what is your opinion of launching a product at CES?
Yohan:You see he's smiling. So I've heard that I've been asked that question many times from my current and potential clients, right? So going to a trade show, exhibiting is great for a couple of reasons. One, if you have a new product launch, great time because you got a lot of people coming in, right? Getting media attention, Awesome, right?
Yohan:Build relationships with your current retail partners, right? And finally, last reason, buying partnerships, right? So I think CS is a great way, but if you blow your entire marketing budget on CS, hoping, Hey, I'm at Best Buy to stop by or I'm gonna get a deal at QVC, you're fooling yourself, right? Buyer you talk to at CS in January, you have two minutes or less, it's very loud, you probably won't get a deal till April, May, August, or not all, because that buyer is probably seeing thousand vendors in that four day show, right? But as a shimmest plug, I've already had the retail buyer's attention, I have a controlled environment, his office or a Zoom call, and the same amount of money you spent at CS, $20, $40, that's like 6 months of retail bound, right?
Yohan:So, CS is a great show for many reasons, but it's more of a nice to have, not a must have.
Chris:Yeah, I say to most companies that there's so many product releases and so many announcements by incredibly large international brands that have, you know, millions of dollars of marketing Yep. That you're gonna be drowned out by the noise. Correct. You're better off announcing ahead of or after CES, and just go to CES to network because you can fit a year's worth of meetings in one week, assuming you get the attention of the right people. That's the reason to go to CES, not to expo, and certainly not if you don't have something that is novel and interesting.
Yohan:Yeah. You're right. They're the big dog, Samsung, LG, they take a lot of the airwaves. And so, yeah, a lot of our clients, they know that it's really, hey, give
Chris:me some meetings, let's have some meaningful conversations, and hopefully go to a second, third date post CES in the Buyer's Office in Minneapolis, Cupertino, California or Chicago. And then the other question I wanted to ask, and I'm curious if you have any, I would say, I don't know, horror stories from some of the companies that you've worked with.
Yohan:Not my clients because they're perfect, because they have me. So I'll I'll give you one story and we'll leave it there. Right? So while the young buyer, we're trying at a certain price point because buyers were very competitive in nature. Right?
Yohan:And who can get more people in the door? So my goal was to get a $99 DVD player, right? Most DVD players were like $149 $199 Oh, the good old days. Yeah, yeah. So we're trying to beat Best Buy and Walmart and get to a $99 DVD player for they and make a dollar or 2, right?
Yohan:I can't give it away, right? Unlike Walmart, which has something called a Market Baskety where they could sell it deeply at below cost, but either you're gonna buy some movies, some chips and salsa, let me make money somehow. For Sears or OfficeMax, we know there's a lot who walked in, they bought that one item and walked out. So we said, let's get nine dollars So we found a brand, I won't mention the name, The Long Term Business Buy, it was a tier three brand, we thought it great, they did all the testing, QA, we actually had a lab like many weeks on-site to test the quality of the product, right? Bought a 100,000 units for a Black Friday, literally sold all of it, right?
Yohan:Woo hoo, right? All of a sudden, the phone started ringing because one, the customer had an issue with the product. Instead of getting a choice of English and Spanish, the manager just ran the Spanish. That's the first issue. The DD player could not play new movies, you actually had to send customers with a DVD firmware update, they actually put in the update, right?
Yohan:There are missing parts. The remote had no batteries. Usually most remotes have batteries, you know. So that's why I tell my clients, no need to rush. That's why I said earlier in the podcast, if we're not ready, speak up.
Yohan:Hey, listen, I can't meet that deadline because of A, B and C. If you rush it through the process and it f's up, Buyer is going hold you respond for a very, very long time, right? So I tell our clients, and in the book I wrote by the way, it highlights that experience of I thought I'd do everything about merchandising, about retail, about sourcing, boy was I wrong, right? Because the GO and sample that was approved was not what was delivered to us six months later, right?
Chris:And and that's an example of over optimizing towards the date because there are those trade offs, right, of trying to hit that date and quality and testing suffered, and the consequence of that is obviously unhappy customers.
Yohan:A lot of young brands will kind of rush you not doing the QA, not do the testing, the third party, not getting certificates like Works or UL, ETL, right? So you do the QA now and will cost a little less and get it done and do it right the first time or pay double or triple that on the back end when the buyer says, hey, we have issues, fix it.
Chris:Oh, yes.
Yohan:And a lot of young brands, they're bootstrapping, they're trying to cut corners, cut on the back end support. A lot of clients will make a great, cool product, but a bad job on post service. So having web chat, email, FAQ videos, right? There's another tip. If you're a hardware startup, don't assume that your customers as much as you do.
Yohan:They don't. So make sure you make it easy for customers to shout to you via phone, web chat, email, your website. Make sure that in your box, have what we call a welcome mat. The business says, hey, if any issues don't return to the retailer, call one-eight hundred CHRIS and let us diagnose it on the phone versus you send it back to retail because retail buyers like me, Chris, hate boomerangs, they want to sell it and keep it sold, they don't want to come back to them.
Chris:Yeah, I would say we learned very early on that the out of box experience is just as important, if not more important than the day to day operation after the customer gets it on the network because that's when they first meet the product. And if they don't like it, it's going right back to where they purchased
Yohan:And generally speaking, most people reviews when they're not happy. So, you want to see your scorecard go down Amazon, Best Buy, yeah, then don't invest in a good process to help customer issues, right? Absolutely.
Chris:You'd be surprised in 2024 how many products today still don't thoughtfully create their out of box experience. You know, I'm I'm an engineer, and I have to struggle to get some of these products on the network, you know, and I can't imagine the average consumer dealing with the I wanted to curse, but I won't, you know, deal with the shenanigans that they put you through. Yep. And that's that's a shame because it's possible the team just needs to want and care enough to implement properly.
Yohan:Correct. Well, I think a lot of brands have good intention, but try and, you know, cut corners or on the QA or on the back end on on supporting their end customers is a no no. I mean, we all await beautiful products, but if you don't have the support mechanisms that keep the customer happy, if not happy, they'll probably be sent back to the retailer, and that's not gonna be a good long term partnership between you and that retailer.
Chris:Yeah. I mean, I could spend far too much time talking about our support infrastructure. We had dozens of people in call centers, live chat support, at least in the beginning, when we had the capital to provide that kind of support. Yep. You know, we were building a product for grandma.
Chris:And if grandma couldn't buy that product at a Best Buy, go home and set it up, that was a problem. And so it it it actually took
Nate:us looking at some of
Chris:the data and being like, oh, the number one reason why people are calling in is this. Well, if we fix that problem for the product, well, guess what? We turn off a lot of the phone calls that are coming in. And so it's a constant feedback loop for what's wrong with the products and, you know, what's the customer complaining about and just constantly iterate. You you brought up good point.
Yohan:I remember when I was a buyer, one of the metrics we looked at is with product returns. Right? Is it is truly defective or the buyer remorse? And I remember I had a device when I was buying camcorder accessories. I'm like, why is that a 35% return rate?
Yohan:Is ludicrous. Should be one or 2%, right? Back in the day, that to date myself, but you had to open your PC, it was a video card. You'd open your PC, put a card in so you can audit your high eight digital eight camera. You know, okay, back in the day, right?
Yohan:Now we're not
Chris:I remember, yeah, the video capture cards, had the Hi8 Super MiniDV, Super
Yohan:and because the problem with merchandise in the viewer area, not the computer department, people didn't realize they had opened their PC, like this is a lot of work. So I told the vendor, I said, listen, do me a favor. For Sears, our customers are like grandma and grandpa, put a giant yellow sticker on the box. So the box says, required installation. That's it.
Yohan:That's all you do, right? Guess what? Sales went down a lot, but guess what? Returns went down a lot more, by the way, because people say, well, I already know before I open the box, I need to open my PC, I'm going to move on. Versus you buy the product, go home and like, oh, I got to open my PC?
Yohan:F that, I'm not doing that. I'm sending it back to Sears where I bought it from.
Chris:And that is a story in expectation management. Correct.
Nate:Yohan, having been in the industry for so long and really seen evolutions of retail approaches, what's your read of where things are headed for retail?
Yohan:I think, you know, retailers, once we are here to stay, like a Home Depot, like a Walmart, like a Best Buy, are continuing to find ways to be more relevant to customers, whereas buying better shopping experience via in store, online, mobile. You're probably going to start seeing retailers shipping the size of their stores. Best Buy 2022 or 2023 took like 200 stores and basically put all their stuff in like one center of the store, it was all like warehouse space. It was like a mini 3PL because if I really need 180,000 square feet, pushing electronics, it's seasonal, right? And I assume Best Buy, like many C retailers make majority of their money in the last six weeks of the year.
Yohan:So I really need all that space paid all in SG and A expenses. So I would say that the future of retail will continue to evolve by seeing more smaller formats, maybe store within a store, probably more AI, where we're more educated sales associates, more enhanced online and mobile platforms to educate customers at point of sale. But I don't see retail brick and mortar being dead anytime soon. But retailers are trying to find creative ways to get people in and out, educate them, right? I think now it will continue to grow.
Yohan:Even as a merchant, you know, back in the day, we had only a couple of systems to look how are sales, how are markdowns, how are promotions doing, right? Now, there's a lot more tools available for the merchant to utilize to manage her business the right way. It's going be a good thing or bad thing depending on what side of the desk you're on.
Nate:Do you think the margins are going to get better? They're going take less rather? Or retail is going to want to take less?
Yohan:I wish, but you I both know the answer to that question,
Nate:Exactly, by the I do know the answer to that question.
Yohan:Yeah. It's getting more expensive now to run a business, right? As retailers find a way to pay their employees more due to government, local, regional, national regulations, the cost of goods, no offense, I was talking to kids about gas, I don't know why. Like my daughter's 16, like, you know, here in Chicago is much cheaper than San Fran, but being like 3 something a gallon for the cheap stuff, I said, back in my day, you know, was like less than a dollar. No way, less than a dollar for gas?
Yohan:Yeah, they can't believe that, right? Or like, know you're a joke, a potbelly sandwich, right? A six inch sandwich cost like $5 sixteen years ago, now that same sandwich is like $10 here in Chicago. So yeah, as costs go up, yeah, the margins need to be up as well to cover all that SG expenses, by the way.
Nate:Or $6 for gas if you're out here and $20 for that sandwich.
Yohan:That's right. That's right. That's right.
Nate:I'm not proud of this for my area.
Chris:No. I'm not.
Yohan:No. Yeah.
Chris:That's great.
Nate:Are you guys hiring? It sounds like you guys are doing some really cool work with really cool companies. What if someone wants to join your team?
Yohan:So typically, the majority of our personnel are former ex retail buyers. That's who we usually have because we need someone who can lead and mentor young brands. I am proud to say we launched a new search recently, it's called our Retail Accelerator. Unlike a Techstars or our incubators, accelerators, we're taking our seventeen years of AC experience and really cramming it into an eight week intensive program. The first session starts on February 3.
Yohan:So for your horror star, maybe Retail is on their Global Marketing Strategy for twenty twenty five, twenty twenty six, we encourage people to apply. There's a form on our website under the Retail Accelerator tab. It'll be between eight to 10 starts per cohort. There'll be group sessions, there'll be one on one with people like myself, and there'll be guest speakers from like Product Packaging, FreePL, Digital Marketing. So it's a very intensive eight week program, but hopefully after two months, it's a startup or startup without this skill, but really the cough is a pitch into a Best Buy or not having a Yohan or a Mark on their team telling them what not to do, I guess, or what not to say.
Yohan:So, yeah.
Chris:So it's like a retail boot camp?
Nate:Correct. I love it. When does that start again?
Yohan:February 3, we're taking applications now. For any of your listeners who are interested, we don't take any equity. It's just a it's a small little charge, but it's a great way to meet with other hardware founders. We're do it four times a year. We just launched literally about a month ago, by the way.
Nate:That's so cool. So you should have them listen to this episode, actually.
Chris:I will.
Nate:It's like a nice tee up for it all. Thanks. Appreciate that.
Chris:I I recommend recording these sessions. You could provide this as a digital course for those that are not part of the cohort and don't get, like, the mentorship and camaraderie.
Yohan:So we've done that. So we actually Oh, amazing. You go on udemy.com, I think it's $99 for a I think it was six sessions. But yes, again, I've launched a second edition book in March, did a Udemy class and just launched an accelerator. So, yes, You tell I'm very busy.
Yohan:No rest for Yohan, I guess.
Chris:In my research, did not find that. So we'll put links to that in the show notes so folks can get access to that.
Nate:Love that you guys are turning out all this stuff.
Yohan:Yeah. I do between 10 to 20 of these podcasts, webinars, stuff, but I can tell you, God, this is one of my favorite ones. I really love the banter between the two of you. So it was a really fun experience, by the way.
Nate:This has been fantastic. I I really, really enjoyed this conversation a lot.
Chris:Yohan, thank you so much for the time. I I love talking retail, and it brings me back down memory lane, so I appreciate it. And everything you do for the industry.
Yohan:Well, it's a pleasure, my friend.
Chris:TRADEOFFS is hosted and produced by Chris Rill and Nate Padgett, editing done by the illustrious Alex Michael. Our logo is designed
Nate:by the talented pixel alchemist, Tanya Shika. If you'd like to be a guest on the
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